A Question for the Tekken people

[acequeenking]

Okay, I kinda suspect the Tekken canon/story is just so hosed that there's just no good answer to this but uh, do we know how possessed Kazuya Mishima is?

I mean, I know the answer is yes this man is chock full of Devil but how much control does he have over Devil?

I've been trying to figure this out for Fic Reasons, because wow did the Tekken 8 trailer bring this fandom roaring back to me at full interest, and it's bugging me. Below is the evidence I can find: 

I know in his T4 ending he's able to merge with Devil and reawaken Jin, but Kazuya's Tekken 4 ending isn't canon. Heihachi officially won the tournament (note to Namco: dumb), and then Jin's ending is canon, but Jin's ending only makes sense if Kazuya's ending is also canon to a point, because it starts in media res during Kazuya's ending.

Heihachi's ending isn't canon at all so far as I can tell, because Heihachi ties up Kazuya in it and Kazuya isn't tied up in Jin's ending. And Jin's T4 ending uses the same wording that Kazuya uses in his own ending to wake up Jin.

....So Kaz's ending has to be canon, right? To a point...?

But then again, Kazuya has both eyes turn brown in his ending as he takes control over Devil. And in every Tekken since (T5-T8) he's consistently kept the demon-inflicted heterochromia he's had since Tekken 4. And in Tekken 5, I don't know what to call the bit in his ending movie where he does this if it's not Kazuya getting his tight little booty butt completely possessed:
 

LIKE THE DUDE'S MOUTH GOES IN TWO DIRECTIONS AT THE SAME TIME. THAT AIN'T RIGHT OR NATURAL. THAT SHIT IS HAUNTED.
 

And then Devil! Jin's encounter with Kaz in T6 Scenario Mode also suggests he's not (entirely) in control one way or another: 

Kazuya Mishima: Look at you. So you've given yourself over entirely to the power of the devil. You weren't half the man I thought you were, Jin Kazama.
Devil Jin: I'm surprised you've been able to resist it so long.

The only other evidence I see cited is Kaz can turn into Devil at will in gameplay but...Jin can also do that in the Tag games, and Jin doesn't have complete control. Admittedly Kaz can do so in the mainline games as well, but Devil! Kaz isn't a character on the roster and Devil! Jin is so I can see why from a gameplay perspective they wouldn't allow Jin to do so (since it would effectively make Jin comically OP since he'd be the only character who can completely change movesets at will).

So is the answer that Kaz just...doesn't have complete control??? Did his Tekken 4 ending as far as beating Devil happen??? Or did it happen in Tekken 7 and I don't remember it??? A lot of forum posts seem to assume he does have complete control, but they also think Jun's his wife which is pretty obviously untrue, canon-wise lol so I'm not that willing to trust them.

 

 

Comments

[sonofgodzilla]

I want to give you a factual lore based answer but in truth... I'm interpreting things in the same way as you. I believe Kazuya is a man who has made choices that he believes are not necessarily right... but acceptable. To have him completely unanswerable would make Tekken a less interesting story, so I want him to still be accountable. I think if Kazuya is the Devil... then that gets him off the hook too much... but this isn't canon, this is just my gut reaction.

I'M NOT ANY HELP AT ALL SORRY!

[acequeenking]

Listen having someone to show the flow chart in my brain to is enormously helpful. *laughs*

I think Kazuya operates by the code Heihachi taught him, which is essentially might makes right. If he can do it and it gives him an advantage, he does. I think having Devil whisper in his ear since at least that he was a child (and maybe longer, now that Tekken 7 decided his mom was also possessed) didn't help with that.

I do agree that he kind of needs to remain in the in-between as an anti-hero. If he has the control Jin does (ie NOT MUCH) then it lets him off the hook too easily morally because he can't be held responsible for what he doesn't choose to do. If he's wholly himself and just utilizing Devil's powers, it's swung him all the way to the villain side, which, granted, he's played that part a lot of the time in Tekken.

But if they just plan to have him as a big bad, then I don't think we'd get the glimpses of his humanity we do get, and 7 and the trailer/demo to 8 really seem to be giving us more of them. I should probably replay 7's story mode because I don't remember a lot of it beyond the Hei/Kaz super-saiyan fight at the end, but I remember he gets a moment to be devastated when he finds out his mom told Akuma to kill him in his office, and they went through some considerable trouble to modify his rage animation to show a soft spot for Jun in 8 that I don't think they would have bothered with if they wanted to just make him the villain.

TL;DR: He's the vegeta.

[sonofgodzilla]

TL;DR: He's the vegeta.

This! (insert Vegeta thumbs up gif here)

I'm very, very much on the same page. I think anything else makes him just... uninteresting and I want to believe that despite the bad choices he has made, it's definitely not that he doesn't feel anything. The quote you posted of him confronting Devil Jin and mocking his lack of control just reads like parental disappointment to me... and if I had a dad like Kazuya does, then, well... you seem to have pushed my Kazuya apologist button.

I'm super excited for what you write! I am so delighted that it is 2024 and we're able to have a conversation about the motivations of Mishima Kazuya!

[acequeenking]

Listen I have been following this trash panda since 1996. We've got almost 20 years of ride or die fangirling lol (god I am getting old)

which is to say I am def also firmly in the "sure Kazuya does wrong things but damn if he doesn't interest me when he does them" crowd.

KAZUYA'S RELATIONSHIP WITH JIN IS SO FREAKING INTERESTING AND I'M SO FERAL FOR IT. I know it's not exactly the nicest father/son relationship but man the enmity he feels for Heihachi really stands out in comparison to the relative ....apathy? for Jin. At times he seems almost proud of him???

and I'm fucking fascinated by all the times that he kind of rebukes him for giving into his demon???? ITS SO INTERESTING TO ME because Kazuya seems to really be the strongest pro-demon character and yet he's warning Jin off the path he's already taken to some extent.

Also the T8 story mode teaser in the demo thus far is just Kazuya scolding Jin about Demoning Right for like eight minutes and that was exactly what I needed to get sucked back in lol.

[eggsbenedict]

Hmmmm I'm pretty sure that Tag isn't canon, especially given the Mishima family hotpot ending (which I love)!

I agree with you that Kaz and Jin have different levels of control, but in both cases it's not 100%. Kaz has chosen to make an actual deal with the Devil to achieve absolute power, and there are strong hints that Jin could surpass him if he'd just walk that path too. But the way their humanity shows so differently alongside the Devil is so important, there wouldn't be much of a story without it!

I'm so sorry you're getting an essay on my lunch break bc I have a Lot of Mishima Thots

[acequeenking]

Yeah, neither tag is canon for sure. Just trying to figure out wherein people decided Kazuya evidently got full control. It's frustrating because they've never been great with explaining their ret-cons; like you, I'm assuming even if he has the Devil gene, that he still made the actual pact with (an) actual Devil in order to get his powers. I think that's kind of an important distinction between him and Jin; poor Jin bby didn't sign-up for this. (Kazuya did, though I don't think he really could consent all that well at, what? Age five? Jeez, Heihachi was such a monster and fucked over both generations so badly.)

I agree he absolutely does a lot more control over it than Jin; I think the fact that he made a conscious decision to join with Devil at a young age, his being much older than Jin, and all that G-Corp research into the Devil Gene probably put him ahead on the control front. But it makes it hard to tell where he stops and where Devil begins.

Jin is def stronger overall, also I think; he has to be given that Kaz has lost to him what, twice now? Lol. Partially I think Kazuya's tragedy is that he really wasn't strong enough to beat Heihachi without Devil, and he knows that, and it eats away at him because deep down he will always be scared he's Not Strong Enough and that Mishima upbringing is all the Strong devour the Weak. :)

Jin also had the advantage of a much stronger upbringing and healthier childhood I think. Jun seems like a nice, normal mom? Kazuya was DOOMED to be a basketcase: one by one, his support systems left him in the most traumatic manner possible. His grandpa he loves goes missing, is imprisoned under Honmaru and then starved to death. Then his mom is MURDERED by his DAD and he saw it. At some point I think he must have stumbled over Jinpachi (!) too, because in T5 he knows Jinpachi is there. So that means for years until whenever Heihachi adopted Lee Chaolan, he's alone with his dad...you know, the dude who murdered his mom and grandpa and attempted to murder him too. Nightmare. NO WONDER THIS DUDE IS SO FUCKED. Jin has issues too but at least he was a little older when it all went to shit (thanks to Heihachi...again!!!) and he has like...you know. Friends! Semi-healthy boundaries outside of his fucked up Mishima family issues.

I think in battle Jin edges out Kaz with the YOUTH ,and he does have like three legendary OP families with special powers running in his bloodline now. Poor Kazuya's gonna wanna see a genetic tree if he ever decides to reproduce again LOL. "Are you SURE you have no elemental powers in your family? No history of demonic possession? No floating wolves ever followed your aunt?"

And out of battle...Sadly I think only Jin has a chance at any kind of normal life.

Re: I'm so sorry you're getting an essay on my lunch break bc I have a Lot of Mishima Thots

[eggsbenedict]

Oh god yes, so many fucked up Mishima family issues to explore! It's the way of the fighting game to make shit up when it comes to ret-cons, haha.

Have you checked out the Netflix animation yet?? :V

I think Jin's going to end up with the Kiryu Kazuma curse of just wanting to be a normal guy, but nobody will ever let him just be one!

Re: I'm so sorry you're getting an essay on my lunch break bc I have a Lot of Mishima Thots

[acequeenking]

LOL it truly is. And the truly weird thing is Namco is weird about establishing main storyline hooks and abruptly pivoting (Lars being huge in scenario mode and then demoted to supporting mishima lol, Jin being the one defeating Jinpachi instead of Kazuya or Heihachi and then turning Full Evil).

LOL Kiryu and Jin would be a fun crossover couple tbh. And hey, they both have parental issues with a Kazama!

EDIT: I ALSO FORGOT THE ANIME CAME OUT. SHIT. WELL GOOD THING IT'S A THREE DAY WEEKEND.